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Interesting read but I don't think we have the personnel to make it successful immediately. 3-4 schemes typically have huge DEs, meaning you need three really big, athletic guys up front rather than just two. And who is going to play LB? Will we even have four of them on campus next year? I kid, of course but we are definitely not deep there.
This post was edited by James Hale 15 months ago
Whatever scheme they use I hope it works. I miss the stout days of old when the D ruled like the Cotton Bowl win over Arkansas.
Hudson when James had an update on it I wrote about the same concerns you have. We have 10 defensive ends and only Matt Dimon and Tapper are close to being the size of defensive tackles in the 3-4. It is a very difficult position to play. You have to be big and strong like tackles in the 4-3 and also have the ability to rush the passer. So the rest of the guys become outside linebackers and I'm not sure that many of them are athletic enough to do it. Michael O. looks like the classic rush linebacker in the pros. So I do agree with James you can disguise more things but not enough to overcome the lack of playmakers.
We are short two things on this team interior defensive lineman and linebackers and now we are going to play 4 linebackers and three interior lineman. It doesn't add up in my feeble mind.
The 3-4 is exactly the same as the 5-2. Only it's more hip to use the 3-4 name because thats what the NFL calls it. OU was very successful with average sized DE's when we ran the 5-2.
Our defensive ends then are now linebackers by terminology. Our former defensive tackles will now be called defensive ends. In the past this is where Leroy, Dewey Selmon played others included John Goodman, Ricky Bryan, Bob Slater, Jeff Tupper, Steve Bryan, Richard Turner, Scott Evans, Stacey Dillard, Tom Backes, Richard Murray, Richard Reed. These were big guys who are nothing like our current defensive ends who now have to play this position or stand up and be outside linebackers. They are as big as JImbo, Darrell Reed, Kevin Murphy, Troy Johnson, Paul Oates, Aubrey Beavers, Wayne Dickson, Daryl Goodlow, John Truitt and Mike Weddington but for the most part they aren't as fast as these guys.
It is going to be interesting where each of our current guys wind up playing.
VB, you left off a few names.....
I think we will play with a five-man front. The three inside guys will be DT types, but since there will be three of them we can utilize a smaller, quicker DT (like Romar) at one of the tackle spots. We can also be a little smaller and quicker at the DE position due to the presence of three interior linemen.
We will play with two linebackers, but one will be a linebacker/ safety hybrid. Think Striker or Alexander. This will be our "nickelback" who we started using in our base defense last year. If we go dime then we will have to either take out one of the linebackers or go to a four-man front.
That's how I see it.
The 3-4 (or the old Okie 52) makes sense with the growth in popularity of the zone-read offenses in college.
Still, it isn't always necessarily what scheme you run on defense, It's the players in the pads. But at the same time, and has been pointed out, you have to use a scheme that best fits your players.
I agree the 3 interior will be D tackle types and bigger ends. Tapper, Dimon, and Nudule will move into the interior 3 in my opinion as their game and athletic ability fit more inside than as a stand up end/outside backer.
I may not be the best to comment on this thread but I'm going to give it my best. I think what we will see is one DT which will more than likely be Phillips and two DE's. Two DE/LB type guys think Geno Grissom Corey Nelson P.L Lindley Rashod Favors guys that can drop and cover really well and rush the passer. Along with two interior LB who cans stuff the run and cover. Most likely being Frank Shannon and Aaron Franklin. Once again this will help disguise our defense because while having a guy like Geno in he can put a hand down and be one of the before mentions down lineman or he could be a stand up guy. Same goes with Corey P.L and Rashod. In the '10 season we tried to do this but since it was a mid season scheme change we had problem adjusting. With a earlier transition change I think we will be much more effective!
...in 1986, when people used to talk about our "huge" o-line that averaged about 285 across the board. Different day and age.
Downs I agree about Romar. His size and athletic ability fits perfectly as the new defensive end. I don't think he is big enough to play the nose guard. In a 3-4 there are no defensive tackles.
The two middle linebackers have to be able to stuff the run. Frank Shannon will play here and probably be decent. Aaron Franklin is tiny. There is no way he can play this position effectively.
Watch the 49's this weekend and who plays these positions.
Inside linebackers Patrick Willis 6' 1" 240#
Navarro Bowman 6' 242#
Outside linebackers Alton Smith 6'4" 258#
Ahmad Brooks 6' 3" 260#
Nose guard Isaac Sopoaga 6' 2" 330#
Defensive end Justin Smith 6' 4" 285#
Ray McDonald 6' 3" 290#
This is what a NFL 3-4 looks like. We obviously don't have to be as big or as good as these guys but it is the type of player you are looking at for these positions. By the way they play this group against the Packers when they have 4 wideouts in the game. Just like a Big 12 spread offense.
I just don't see that we have guys who can play defensive end or inside linebacker. That is four positions with names but not guys who should play there. Yes we can find a guy to play nose guard. We have a bunch of guys who can play outside linebacker from the current defensive ends, safeties and linebackers on our team.
Jordan Phillips doesn't have the leverage to play nose he will play as a defensive end in this scheme. Only chance of him playing nose is if Quincy Russell doesn't qualify. At nose there will be Russell, Jordan Wade, Damon Williams, and possibly Torrea Peterson. The smaller tackles Marquis Anderson, I think Torrea Peterson will start at the defensive end positions with Jordan Phillips, Tapper, Dimon, Nudule, and the 3 high school defensive tackles we have committed! Of course this is all my opinion and guess work!
This post was edited by 905422A 15 months ago
Hey guys, I don't get all the hand wringing over the possible switch to the 3-4 scheme. Our "issues" personnel wise is the reason coaches run a 50 front.
Bill Parcells was one of the first NFL coaches to return to the 50 front when he took over the Giants. At the time, the 4-3 based defense was prevelant in the NFL. I once heard Parcells talk about why he prefers this defense and according to him, it starts with available personnel.
He said (paraphrased), "to run a great 4-3 defense, you need a dominant defensive tackle and two very good to great defensive ends." The 4-3 means you need amazingly athletic big men. Parcells theory was, its easier to find freak athletes at the linebacker size (ie Lawrence Taylor, Charles Haley, Demarcus Ware) than at defensive tackle and defensive end size.
As i heard him describe it, in a 4-3, your defensive ends have to be big and strong enough to take on the power run coming at the them, fast enough to string out the wide runs to their side and pursue the runs away from them... oh, and be able to get an effective push from the edge as a pass rusher. Your dominant defensive tackle had to be able to force double teams to keep linemen off of your linebackers... and needed to be able to make plays against that double team. The other tackle had to be able to defeat a one on one block and get penetration against both the pass and the run.
In the 3-4 you're counting on your nose tackle to anchor the middle and plug things up. Kelly Gregg was a great 3-4 NT. If he is able to get some penetration and disrupt things (a la Jay Ratliff of the Dallas Cowboys), that's a bonus... but if not, you're happy if he commands a double team and can hold his ground.
Your "defensive ends" in the 3-4 ideally are larger, but a lack of size or being a tweener size-wise can be offset with quickness and an ability to get in a gap and penetrate. OU has a lot of these "tweener" types. In fact, Jackie Shipp seems to prefer the Tommie Harris/ Gerald McCoy size player. He took Stacy McGee who was, what 250 coming out of high school and wanted him to be a defensive tackle. In the 3-4, Stacy McGee is an ideal defensive end.
Matt Dimon... is he fast enough to be a 4-3 defensive end? Is he big enough to be a 4-3 defensive tackle? The answer to those two questions is possibly no. He may be good at either position in that scheme, but may be a liability at times. In a 3-4, he's a taylor made defensive end. Big, strong and plenty quick enough to get into a gap and penetrate.
Your undersized defensive tackles and oversized defensive ends in the 4-3 are perfect defensive ends in the 3-4. You just need to find a big ol' boy defensive tackle to play NG and anchor the middle of the defense. And because he has a defensive end one gap to either side of him and two linebackers running to the ball just behind him, he doesn't have to be as fast as a 4-3 d-tackle.
If we do in deed go to the 50 front, we just need to keep getting the Matt Dimons, Charles Tappers and Jordan Phillips to play that interior... throw in a couple big ol' Jordan Wades or Torea Petersons and we'll be fine up front.
As for the backers, we've never had problems finding and recruiting the size and type of athletes we need for the outside backer spots. Striker, Nelson, Ibiloye... those are the type of great athlete you want on the edge. Speed to blitz and disrupt the running game and pressure the QB, as well as drop back and cover an underneath zone or the flats.
Where we will need to improve our recruiting is at the middle backer spots. We will need to get backers with some more size for there. The good thing is, as Parcells said, it's easier to find great athletes that size that can run than 290 that can run. There are plenty of big backers that can run out there... we just have to start getting them and when we do, plug them into this scheme as MLBs instead of spinning them down to d-ends as we did in the 4-3, a la Favors and Lindley.
I'm personally very excited that we're possibly going to the 50 front. I think with the type of player we tend to recruit, it is the best possible scheme for the diverse offenses we face and the great athletes that we go against.
This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by Sooner 4Ever 15 months ago
It's not the human walk; it's the human race - Nickelback
Our defense got better two years ago when BV went to it late in the season. It isn't unknown to our staff.
Sooner 4Ever- great post I couldn't agree more. It fits our personnel and personnel that we recruit except the interior linebackers but we will get them. I'm excited for the change!
Exactly, Deep Red... in fact, the end of the 2011 season illustrates that we have the front 5 personnel to run this defense. The 50 front we ran then was anchored by a 270 pound defensive end, playing nose tackle. David King, was a beast playing inside in the 50 front.
If a 270 pound player who had always played outside can be that effective in there, imagine what a 285 pound player who IS an interior defensive lineman can do. Or better yet, a 300 pounder like Jordan Wade or Torea Peterson... or Quincy Russell.
This post was edited by Sooner 4Ever 15 months ago
Great points on the inside linebackers. OU would have to have two guys to plug up the run. I think Jordan Phillips has the oppurtunity to be good as a NT but obviously time will tell.
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I also love guys like Romar for this scheme. He's been listed at about 260-270 and now his coach says he's 285. Coaches tend over state these things, so let's put him in the high 270s.
He's been noted for bull strength and amazing quickness and speed... I believe he's been timed at 4.6 (although 40 times are often as "accurate" as weight). With those measurables, he could come in here and potentially be an early factor in the 50 front as a defensive end... and if he adds 20 pounds while in the program, move to NT and be an absolute beast.
Sooner4ever, nice couple of posts. I agree with you.
I see Phillips more as a D End in this scheme similar to Stephon Tuitt at Notre Dame. Also at interior linebacker I'm excited to see what Favors and Lindley can do here along with Shannon. I wonder if there will be experimenting with trying either CJ Ward or Obo at inside linebacker. Great discussion by the way guys!
LOL, this is funny. We are going back to the same defense BV ran in 11 before we ran him off.....LOL. Mike called a scared defense this year. We would have beaten Kst had we attacked and with the DBs we had, there was no reason not to be. Same with ND. He was static and was easy to call plays against. Now, we want to better disguise things. Well, I guess that progress for you.
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