O'Connell's Off Topic

Surely you relaize you have to draw the line somewhere, Tim. How about if a man wants to marry a 13 year old girl or how about his own sister ? Aren't these considered moral issues ? I think you are prostituting morals and godliness for the sake of promoting your civil liberties ideology. You go too far with it for the sake of your agenda.

I don't know if you are a Christian or not, but churches should not be involved in advocating anything that goes against God's word by marrying gays.

Tim I actually think child molesters are born that way too but there's a big difference.

Child molesters abuse helpless people, gays who marry are consenting adults. Surely you can understand the difference.

What did I say about child molesters?

Man loves to think much of his little observances, eh ? Science supposedly discovers a gene or something they then say is the CAUSE of alcoholism though I do not believe it and then science goes on to presume that these are the causes for many of man's immoralities. How nice if we could do this and not be responsible for our sins, right ? Think that will work in the day of judgment ? I think only the blood of Christ can absolve our sins.

I can see where the unbelievers would fall for this but Christians should know better. God says these are degrading passions and thus holds us accountable for our indulgence in sins. There are many scriptural references which show that we sin because of our own lusts and desires for self gratification. Once we commit a sin it has a hold on us to do so again. The more we commit the same sin the greater the grip it has even to the point where it says we may be ensnared by the devil being held captive by him to do his will. This is why so called habitual sins are extremely hard to break.

The great news is that Christ has made His overcoming power available to us so that if we are willing, and appropriate His life in our spirit for a walk in the spirit we can be freed from all things. As it says, “walk in the spirit and you will not carry out the desires of the flesh.” We must not attempt this by our own will power as it also says, “Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit says the Lord.”

There are many Christians who overcame drugs, alcohol, and even homosexuality. Science merely observes what is observable within the current limitations of science and then men take that to the extreme as if to say we are not really responsible for many sins because there is a so-called abnormality within our DNA.

Actually, the bible does say there is something terribly wrong within our being and it calls it the law of sin and the law of death. Without these there would exist no power or inclination to sin or do wrong. As it is, we fight against these inner laws but to no avail except through Christ. In Him we have the solution to these horrible laws called the law of the Spirit of Life. This is the only power strong enough to break these old laws and to set men free from the tyranny of the sin nature.

Unfortunately, most Christians do not do a very good job of appropriating the superior law but that is because we have not been properly instructed in how to do it but that day is coming.

Soonerman I will gladly fight for your right to believe whatever bigoted BS your religion feels is necessary inside its Church but that stuff has no place in our government or our laws.

You wanna believe gays are sinners fine. Do so in church. Your children can learn to hate gays, Muslims and whoever else in Bible school. Leave it there.

Legally our government is not a theocracy and 2 out of every 10 citizens aren't Christians. Science looks at evidence and the fact millions of people say they were born gay IS evidence. Someday we will figure out why and that will be evidence too.

You ask where do we draw the line in the sand, I say here. Leave adults to do whatever they want behind closed doors as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Gay marriage fine. Smoke pot fine. Cook Meth, not fine. Pedophiles not fine. It's easy and it's smaller government, something you Tea Partiers say you're for.

We're not that far apart here though I do take exception to the part about hating others. True Christians do not hate people. ANd I have repeatedly said I am not in favor of a theocracy, at least not until the Lord returns to be the King. Every attempt at men trying to rule men always ends up messed up.

I also don't take the subjective opinions of men as scientific FACT especially when it contradicts nature itself , not to mention the God who created all things.

Thanks for that TIMBOB. I believe you have written that before about Fed vs. state delegating of powers but it must sailed right through my ears. Memory part of my brain just aint what it aughtta be.

Since I assume you are a citizen of one of these states, that you might could be specific about some things but I don't think you are wanting to do that. I'm just trying to get you to state your position on some things just to make sure you are not simply just a pure ideologue who simply says less gov. with no specific and practical ideas on how to accomplish something in the complicated, real and practical world in which we find ourselves.

I'm just weary of all the empty rhetoric and endless bantering over ideologies. I am ready for some real, practical and substantive changes that will make a positive improvement on our daily lives. I'm tired of all the talk about this party and that, this ideology and that one, and which is right and wrong.

Know what I mean?

Soonerman.... Just quit talking about science because you know nothing about it. Saying that scientists have identified certain genes, but you don't believe it makes you look like a fool. If we all lived like you we'd be worried about falling off the edge of the earth.

If a doctor tells you that your kid has some terrible genetic disorder are you going to tell him that he's wrong? Hell no you won't! You'll be following his every instruction in fighting whatever the ailment might be. Your disbelief in science is always selective to fit whatever argument you might be in and is always subject to change. For that, you are a hypocrite.

Both science and religion have limited knowledge bases. We do not know everything there is to know about God. Those who believe in God have his word (the bible) and what we know I'd based on that. We don't know anymore or less than what's found in His word. And we won't know anymore until he returns. I k ow not everyone believes in God but those who do can not deny this.

Science is also limited and science is wrong often but the thing with science is it is always learning more therefore their knowledge continues to grow science corrects it's errors and learns even more in the meantime. In fact for those who believe in God science is about the only way to learn more about Him. This takes a lot of faith and understanding ad an open mind. Many struggle having an open mind.

The same uneducated response you always make. I didn't put any words in your mouth. You use science when it benefits you, but flatly deny it when it doesn't fit your incredibly flawed arguments. I know you feel like you have to chime in on every single topic, but your ignorance shines through more times than not. Use your brain every once in a while and do some research of your own. Tell me why genetics is flawed in some instances and not in others. Back it up with a study of some sort rather than just saying you don't believe it. Oh and don't link me to some christian science website that thinks the earth is slightly older than the US.

Don't talk about "inherent limitations" in science when you don't have anything more than an elementary education on the subject. All you do is plagiarize the ignorant talking points of people who know nothing about science and wish to know nothing about science. Do you ever have an original thought?

And stop accusing people of putting words in your mouth when everyone here knows thats your m.o. Saying that science is my belief system shows that you're at it once again. You may think your house is "built upon solid rock", but in reality its built around ignorance, plagiarism, and bigotry.

You are amazing, dodger. The exagerations and distortions, my oh my...even going so far as to say my education level is elementary. I'll have you know, I made it all the way to the 12th grade ! LOL What's more, I graduated at the top of my class. (There were two of us!!)

Funny, but there are many scientific minds who agree with my simple statements that science does not know everything and that it only knows and observes what it is currently capable of knowing. It shouldn't take much genuis to recognize this very simple point and then from there to understand that it would be foolish to base your entire belief system upon the limits of science. Anywho...I can't say it any better than this; (This is my rock)

18For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

19For it is written,
“I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.”

20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29so that no man may boast before God. 30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”

While your boast is in science, mine is in the Lord. I will gladly accept the label of the foolish for believing in Him.

Sorry but I disagree. It says to be transformed by the renewing of your mind and that we have the mind of Christ. It also says that He is made wisdom unto us and that in Him we have the riches of Christ.

There are only two fundamental ways of acquiring knowledge. In fact, you could even say that these two ways are represented by the two trees from the garden of Eden. The way of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is to rely entirely upon the limited powers of the soulish part of man (mind, will and emotions) and apart from God. This means you study, you observe, you test until you meet with error and then you do it again and again and again. Each man learning from the other and building upon this base of knowledge. Since God has declared that the foolishness of God is wiser then the wisdom of men, how long do you think it will take to reach the level of God ? What's more important and telling is why even go this route when you can partake of His divine life and nature by denying this tree?

This other tree (of life) is also a way of acquiring knowledge or wisdom directly from the source of all wisdom which is God. The key that opens this door of development in knowledge and wisdom is in shutting the other door that relies upon the powers of the soul in favor of the power of the Holy Spirit who dispenses unto us the wisdom from above which is the person of Christ. While many have traded away the knowledge of Christ for that of science, sociology, psychology, philosophy and etc I would rather trade all of these for the greater riches contained in the wisdom of Christ.

In fact, even as a Christian I used to study psychology and self help methods until the lord opened my eyes. Once I rejected these in favor of His superior wisdom, He began to strengthen me in my spirit even causing a separation between my spirit and soul which enables one to begin a walk in this old world and yet also in fellowship with Him in the spirit.

I found quite the opposite to your statement in that the more I tried to know Him via the confines of the soul, the more restricted and frustrated I became. When He opened my eyes and I rejected these, He then began to enable me to know Him in a way that science will never be able to do. I now know Him personally and subjectively in my spirit. More and more I know Him because He is in me and abides in me and I in Him. This way is far superior to the attainment of an impersonal objective learning ABOUT God.

I know you have alot of learning and experience in ministry and I respect that but, I cannot deny these things which the lord Himself has taught me. This is nothing peculiar with me alone but I habe found that this is for everyone. It is the way of Christ which Paul preached in dying to self, and presenting yourself to God as those alve from the dead so that He can then dispense Himself into us for newness of life. This is the way for knowing God as opposed to merely learning doctrines and teachings about God. One is a life and living out from the spirit and the other is confined to the elementary principles of the world in the ways of learning via the soul through the arts and sciences of men.

One is living out from the soul and one is out from the spirit. It is crucial for us to make this distinction and to make it our way.

Soonerman I don't wanna debate you on scripture I'd lose that argument.

That said, your scripture is wrong when it comes to gays. Millions of people in this country alone say they were born that gay. That's proof and frankly it's more physical proof than anything in the Bible which as I'm sure you know relies on faith (something you can't prove)

If we take them at their word, then discriminating against them is no different than discriminating against someone because of race or handicap. That's why I use the term "bigot" to describe anyone who believes in discriminating against gays.

I'm not gay (married to an absolutely stunning southern belle) but I believe strongly that discrimination is evil. That's why I don't pull punches on this. If you're using the Bible to believe in discrimination you're a bigot. You may be a nice person in every other sense but you're a bigot.