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Law School Question

  • I have a daughter who is facing a tough one. OU or Notre Dame for Law School. She realizes the cost differential, but the connections........

    Thoughts appreciated from those who have an opinion (educated of course).

    sooneraia

  • I have an MBA, not a JD, but what she should think about is what she wants to do as a Lawyer when she graduates, and also where she wants to do it. Look at the Law firms that recruit at each school, what they do and where they are located.

    If her desire is to remain in Oklahoma or the Oklahoma region (Oklahoma border areas) and practice Law then OU may make more sense. ND is more of a national school as far as where their graduates are hired, but that doesn't mean they place a lot of people in the Oklahoma region. Not saying she can't find an internship or a job in this area from ND, only that she will have to do most of the work on her own.

    If however she is looking to work outside the Oklahoma region then ND will give her more opportunity to do that. Again, not that you can't go from OU to NYC or LA or wherever, but she will have less assistance, opportunities and support than she might otherwise have if she as looking to land employment in the locations/firms OU traditionally places lawyers.

    That is not to say that she will get a better or worse education at OU or ND law school, just that I would view ND as more of a national program and OU as more of a regional program regarding where their graduates are hired.

    LJandtheDeuce

  • The question I would have for her is where does she want to practice law. If she wants to stay in Oklahoma then she should just go to OU. I went to OU and it is very affordable, if not one of the cheapest schools in the country, but it is also rated fairly high. If she wants to practice up north, like Chicago or somewhere in Indiana then it would be helpful to go to Notre Dame. A law degree from Notre Dame will not make that big of a difference to a law firm in Oklahoma but to a law firm in Chicago or another city up north it could make a big difference.

    The main deciding issue for me would be where do I want to live and practice law. Secondly, how long do I want to pay off a student loan from Notre Dame versus a loan from OU. I would imagine the difference would be quite large.

    OUatty

  • Thanks for the thoughts. We have discussed the very topics you have brought up, and those seem to be fairly consistent responses. I am not sure she has that long range plan as of yet, but she will need to think about it because seat deposits are coming due. Costs are, as mentioned, significantly different.

    sooneraia

  • i faced a similar decision when choosing a law school. i had some top 20 law school options, but not any elite options. and i had a school like OU.

    a school like ND has a much better name and will open doors in the midwest, like Chicago. but the name is not so great that it will give national opportunities unless one ranks very highly at the school. it's a great school, but unless your daughter has her heart set on that region, the benefit may not outweigh the cost. that's the problem with a school like ND--it's a very good law school and it speaks highly of those who go there and get in, but it's not so elite that the graduates are in demand like Harvard, Yale, and Stanford grads. when compared to cheaper options, the benefits between an ND and a state school are not incredibly substantial.

    OU, if one finishes at or near the very top in the rankings, will open up many opportunities. and, i'm assuming if your daughter got into ND, she'll get scholarships at OU. so, a cheap option which could still open a lot of doors if she does well at OU.

    i went to OU and have no regrets.

    some text

    props

  • Props, she has been accepted to ND, as well as OU. As of this time though, OU has not been spreading the scholarship money her way. She was also accepted at Colorado, another great school, but more expensive than OU.

    sooneraia

  • I'm a lawyer with one of the largest firms in Oklahoma. I had choices like your daughter. I wanted to practice in Oklahoma so I went to OU. Unless she wants to practice in Colo., I'd cross it off the list. If she want's to practice in Oklahoma, she should go to OU. If she want's to practice in New York, Chicago, L.A., etc. she should go to ND. It's a pretty simple choice unless she doesn't know where she wants to practice. She should make that choice before she chooses a law school. Good luck.

    Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est. "Knowledge is power." - Francis Bacon

    SoonerBob87

  • I am certainly not an attorney, but have friends who are. They have often expressed the opinion that if you know you have a position locally, your return on investment is better with a state school.

    If you don't, then you either need to 1) go to a state school and do some post graduate specialty law or 2)go to the highest rated law school you can get in.

    They say if you aren't connected or do one of those 2 routes, then jobs are hard to find.

    Again, I am not an attorney, so take it for what it is worth.

    SoonerInTN

  • I have heard that ND gives some amazing scholarships to females...has she looked into this?

    OUpinkKitty

  • Other than getting her acceptance packet, there was not any other material regarding scholarships. Some let you know when you receive your letter, some notify you later. We have followed up to see if she will be in line for an initial scholarship offer. If not we will look into all of the other types they offer.

    sooneraia

  • The advice you have gotten so far is good. ND is a good law school and places much better nationally and in the Chicago area than Oklahoma, but if she wants to stay in Oklahoma, OU would be fine. I also agree with the comment made by another poster that while ND may offer more opportunities than OU outside of Oklahoma (for example, many top midwest and even a fair number of big national law firms will recruit on campus at ND but not at OU), it is not such a big name school as to make getting a top job a given. Depending on how the market looks at any given time (and it has been pretty tight the last few years), a ND grad might need to be finish somewhere between the top 10-30% of the class to land a top job. Students in the middle of the ND class likely do not typically land top jobs, unlike those in the middle of the class at some bigger name schools (usually people think of the big 14 - Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Chicago, Columbia, NYU, Michigan, UC Berkleley - Boalt, Virginia, Penn, Duke, Cornell, Georgetown, Northwestern; in a bad economy, even middle of the class grads from those school can have some problems finding good jobs). It is certainly reasonable to consider the cost vs. risks/benefits of opting for a much more expensive school like ND.

    SoonerBeau

  • sooneraia said...

    Props, she has been accepted to ND, as well as OU. As of this time though, OU has not been spreading the scholarship money her way. She was also accepted at Colorado, another great school, but more expensive than OU.

    you can negotiate scholarships. private schools are more inclined to open up the coffers for someone they want than state schools though. if your daughter has a serious interest in a school, tell her to discuss with the admissions people scholarship money and why that is important.

    i was accepted into a very good state school (not OU), who originally offered me zero in scholarship money. after i expressed interest, they first offered me 3/4 tuition, before then offering me a full ride including books and a laptop. SMU, as another example, went from 20k per year to a full ride right after i told them i was going to attend OU. so, just because she has not received scholarship offers, it does not mean that she won't get any.

    OU's scholarship offers come a few weeks after getting in. it's hard to fathom that someone like your daughter, who has the credentials to get into ND, won't get money from OU.

    some text

    props

  • I currently work for a big law firm in Texas (and have previously worked for a big law firm on the East Coast). Going to ND would be better not just in Chicago and the East Coast but also for Texas and Oklahoma. To get a job at one of the top firms in OKC, you have to be at the very top of the class at OU. It is even worse in Dallas and Houston. There is definitely going to be a little more leniency in class rank coming from ND.

    Having said that, if your daughter doesn't want to work for a big law firm, then it is almost certainly not going to be worth the money to go to ND. And, even if she does go to a big firm, she may end up hating it.

    OURog

  • No decision yet, but I have noticed one thing. Since getting her acceptance info from ND she has received two letters from ND law school alumni, one from Las Vegas and one from Chicago, promoting ND and telling her to call them anytime with questions. Have not had anything like that from any of the other schools she has been accepted to (8 so far), including OU. That seems to tell me something about their "networking".

    sooneraia

  • Again - unless she wants to be Governor of Oklahoma, ND is almost certainly better for her career. The question is really about cost. When considering cost though, you should factor in the fact that the starting salary for big law firms is 160k in Texas and Chicago (as well as the coasts). I don't know what OK firms pay now, but even the top ones are much lower than that.

    OURog

  • Maybe we will know more after she visits ND. She really liked OU. You are right, cost is a major item she will have to wrap her hands around, pops won't be able to foot that bill.

    sooneraia

  • First, I don't think that Notre Dame Law is so highly rated that you can cash your check from graduating there.

    Secondly, OU has a pretty good law school. OU has made a commitment to it's law school and it continues to grow in reputation.

    Thirdly, in a down economy you see more people going to law school fighting for fewer jobs. There have been recent articles (if you go online you can probably find them) questioning the cost benefit of going to expensive law schools.

    I'm not trying to pretend that OU has a better law school reputation as Notre Dame because it doesn't. The latest US News rankings has Notre Dame at 23 where as OU is somewhere between 70 and 80. That said, I would be real cautious in thinking one could make a lot more money graduating from Notre Dame as opposed to OU. I imagine OU is somewhere around 15K a year for in state tuition? I would also imagine Notre Dame is somewhere around 45K? Unless mom and dad are toting the note for law school then that would save your daughter approximately 90K over 3 years.

    I guess someone would say I am wrong on all counts but if it were my child I would suggest OU.

    soonerburrage

  • For what it's worth, US News 2011 rankings has Notre Dame #23 and OU tied for #71.

    Others in area:
    fexas - tied 14
    Washington Univ, St. Louis - 18
    Iowa - 27
    Colorado - 47
    SMU - 50
    Baylor & University of Houston - tied 56

    signature image

    Live On University!

    ImaSoonergal ●

  • I live and work in DC and I would say about 80% of my clients are attorneys at big law firms here and in NY. I think its very important for your daughter to decide if she wants to practice law in Oklahoma or would rather have the choice to practice nationally or even internationally. The common first year associate out here starts at $160,000 a year. Typically they have about the same amount of debt from law school. Most of them have come from East Coast schools, West coast schools, Michigan, Texas, or Ivy league.
    I would encourage her to narrow down what kind of law she wants to practice and then look at the firms that are best for that particular area of law. Every firm has a website and a biography for each attorney at their firm and it lists where they went to school. Most of the firms here have between 150-225 attorneys working there. Looking through most of those I have only found a handful of grads from OU or other state schools. Thats not to say anything bad OU or other schools its just how it works out here they recruit their own.

    Mobman34

  • So, Mobman, are you supporting the ND option? Do you have any ND grads at your place? She really does not have a "direction" as to the type of law to practice. She is really torn here. It looks like we will send in the first seat deposit to OU, visit ND, and then try to let her decide. Tough choices. Thanks for everyones insight.

    sooneraia

  • It definitely depends what she wants to do. If she wants to be a partner at a big firm or a GC at a big corporation, she should go to the best school she gets into. If she wants to work at a small firm or in the district attorney's office or quit after a few years to have kids, it may be a waste to go somewhere expensive.

    Even though I generally favor going to the best school possible, I will admit that going to ND is not a guarantee that she will get a top paying job in a big city after graduation. The chances are better than from OU, but they are far from certain.

    To be perfectly fair, I don't think law school if a great option for most people. Only a small percentage of graduates end up getting high paying jobs. The rest end up with jobs that don't pay more than they could have gotten without wasting 3 years and a ton of money on law school. And the legal profession is very difficult and can cause a lot of strain on your personal life.

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by OURog on 3/23/2011 at 2:42 PM

    OURog

  • sooneraia said...

    So, Mobman, are you supporting the ND option? Do you have any ND grads at your place? She really does not have a "direction" as to the type of law to practice. She is really torn here. It looks like we will send in the first seat deposit to OU, visit ND, and then try to let her decide. Tough choices. Thanks for everyones insight.

    there is no clear right or wrong answer. it depends entirely on what your daughter wants to do. problem is, very few pre-law students know this. before i started law school, what i'm doing now was not even on my radar.

    i work in texas at a large international law firm. i went to OU. and i have zero regrets. i did not get into any elite schools (harvard, yale, stanford, even texas). but i had options along the same prestige level as ND. when i graduated, i had the same options coming out of OU that many harvard kids had (though, admittedly, OU law does not attract top law firms--a student has to seek out these opportunities on their own). so, i am glad i didn't go to a school that cost $40k/year, because, at best, i would've just ended up in the same situation i am now.

    a lot of this discussion has focused on job opportunities, namely at big law firms. it should be noted that there are a lot of job opportunities that aren't law firms. it's just that law firms tend to pay a lot. it's kinda stupid how much they pay kids with zero experience. but, it's a safe assumption that if you can get a job at a big law firm, you can get a lot of other jobs as well.

    but anyway, going to a school like ND just increases the margin for error. at OU, if you want to go to a big law firm, you need to be in the top 5-10 students in your class. if you go to a school like ND, without connections, you will have to be in the top 10-15% of your class--about the top 25 kids in the class--to have similar opportunities. but, consider the fact that ND attracts "higher quality" students, and the competition for those spots is much greater at ND.

    so, statistically, you increase your odds of getting a big law job slightly by attending ND. not significantly--only slightly. but, you add 20k to 30k per year in cost to get the increased odds. i just don't see how ND would be a slam dunk decision unless your daughter was certain chicago legal market was it.

    now, if one was an average student at ND, one would have better options than an average student at OU. the chicago-area legal market is larger, and there will be more small to mid-sized firms who have the capacity to hire than in Oklahoma. it's similar to SMU students, for example. SMU students have an easier time finding jobs than OU students, not necessarily because SMU is a vastly better law school (because it isn't), but because SMU is in a large city with a large legal market.

    a risk averse person would choose OU in my opinion. because even if the worst happens and no job is available, at least you're only out 10k to 40k rather than 100k. and best case, you have the same type options as any ND student.

    some text

    props

  • I agree with most of what props said. I would add that you should have your daughter visit ND and talk to students (hopefully 3Ls) about the school and job prospects. Although I have focused almost entirely on job prospects, it is probably the case that OU will be more fun (and will certainly be cheaper), so if your daughter is not sure she wants to practice law, then I would agree OU is a safer choice.

    OURog

  • A little update for those who played along. My daughter did receive a three year scholarship offer from ND today. It is worth about 25% of the annual projected cost. ND is pretty expensive, so this helps some. Every school she is seriously considering has ponyed up some money, except OU. I dn't know if they think because she is from Oklahoma, they have her locked up or what. It's getting down to the time where I am going to have to get this addressed. OU's overall lower cost is certainly one thing, but it is nice to feel like you are really wanted.

    sooneraia

  • I also work at an international law firm in Houston and went to OU. I never considered going to another school. Everyone who has said that where you want to work matters is absolutely correct. If you go to OU, and do well, you can easily get a job in Dallas or Houston. Equal grades at OU or ND will not make a bit of difference in Texas or Oklahoma unless the hiring person is a ND alum. It is equally true that ND grads are much more likely to obtain offers from Chicago firms.

    The debt issue is also huge - graduating from OU with 50-75 in debt or ND with 100-150 in debt (totally guessing at the numbers) should make you look at what you will make. We have students with 300 in debt who start at 160. Students who went to OU and other state schools who have less debt are sooooo much better off. I borrowed 30 to go to law school at OU. Some of my peers at my firm in Houston borrowed three times that amount.

    Finally, the big law jobs are getting more and more scarce. At my firm, I think there are 20 summer clerk jobs. We have at least 1000 applicants for those positions. These kids are top students at big time schools. If your daughter wants to work at a big firm, she needs to make the best grades possible.

    Too many people go to law school because they can't get a good job out of undergraduate school. There are too many people in law school who have no business there or no business borrowing so much money for that degree.

    Best of luck to your daughter. I love my job, my clients and my career. I would go to law school again in a heartbeat. I would also strongly advise all of my kids to consider another career option. It's tough to make it at a big firm. However, there are many other rewarding jobs you can have with a law degree.

    elguapo2

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