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Tulsa World: Article on physician shortage (link)

  • http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=17&articleid=20111001_17_A1_CUTLIN749538

    I hope OU leadership reads this article. OU should allocate some of the National Merit scholarship money to scholarships for small town students who show a strong interest in practicing medicine - as an MD, DO, Physicians Assistant, RN - in rural Oklahoma.

    Shortage of health care in Oklahoma is where resources are needed. Not to award big $20 K scholarships to National Merit students.

    If OU can afford $20 K per year to NM students, maybe OU can award some $4 K scholarships to good students who show interest in health and medical careers in Oklahoma.

  • nm

    This post was edited by SoonerInTN 13 months ago

  • SoonerInTN said... (original post)

    Regardless of what many want to think, doctors are people too and want to live in desirable places. Rural Oklahoma(or Tennessee, etc) really isn't all that appealing to most people.

    Recruiting and retaining physicians is a challenge for rural and mid size cities and towns. Some MD's like small citiies, including good docs. But, they are on call more than the city guys. I think PA's (trained and qualified and certified Physician Assistants) and practiciing RN's is some of the answer.

    Also scholarships to good students - who express willingness to return to their small town. You can't make the commitment binding legally. But if you get a sincere commitment for 5 or 10 years.....Then, keep recruiting other young men and women.

    There are some really good points about small towns. In Oklahoma most towns are less than 2 hours from a city.

    Idea: Set up a program to loan money to students who major in health practice (MD or Physician assistants or RN). If they live and practice in a rural area for say 5 to 10 years, find a way to forgive the loan. . Set up a strong incentive for these people to be health practice people in rural Oklahoma. Health care is vital to Oklahoma small cities.

    This Health Care issue is an area that OU needs to step up on. Even if it means taking money from some pet sacred cow programs. This is serious.

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by Pragmatic 3 years ago

  • nm

    This post was edited by SoonerInTN 13 months ago

  • I think some of the solution is practical medicine. Physician Assistants and practicing RN's. With the information available on the internet, a sharp commonsense person who can prescribe and administer some basic treatments can fill much of the need.

    And small towns can find these professionals easier than finding MD's. My doc uses a PA for some significant procedures.

    And the patient needs to educate him/her self. And use good judgement on personal health.

  • nm

    This post was edited by SoonerInTN 13 months ago

  • Docs can and do make mistakes - often due to being spread thin. I like an respect MD's. But a smart PA or NP is a good start in health care. .

  • I dont want to hear the shit, My son went to UT, majored in neuroscience, finished in 3 and a half years, had a 3.5 GPA. He cant get into med schoool. Have to have a 3.7. He applied for physical therapy school, didnt even get a interview. He was going to apply for phy asst, so he went to UT southwest medical school, and they told him he need a semesters worth of pre reqs to meet their program, but there was no guarantee of getting in.

    So, screw all of them. They dont want doctors. We just spent a 100,000 dollars only to get the door slammed in our face.

    now, he is in UT grad school getting a masters in accounting.

  • I know of similar deals like your son's. Did he take Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, Zoology, Anatomy? Did he have his own cadaver? That's what lots of the kids have while they are sophomores and juniors. Organic chemistry scares some kids out of "pre med". Some some things you might already know.

    The deal might be: A student who takes a rigorous classic "pre med" set of courses will have an edge. Even with a lower GPA. I'm not saying that's the case. But, maybe.

  • yea, he took all of those, 20 hrs of chemistry including o chem 2 and biochemistry, calculas, anatomy 1 and 2...........so F... the med schools and the horse they rode in on

  • sonofpoweredge said... (original post)

    I dont want to hear the shit, My son went to UT, majored in neuroscience, finished in 3 and a half years, had a 3.5 GPA. He cant get into med schoool. Have to have a 3.7. He applied for physical therapy school, didnt even get a interview. He was going to apply for phy asst, so he went to UT southwest medical school, and they told him he need a semesters worth of pre reqs to meet their program, but there was no guarantee of getting in.

    So, screw all of them. They dont want doctors. We just spent a 100,000 dollars only to get the door slammed in our face.

    now, he is in UT grad school getting a masters in accounting.

    nm

    This post was edited by SoonerInTN 13 months ago

  • Must point now. He is in grad school and in 2 semesters will have a masters in accounting..In 2 more will have a MBA. so the med schools and the selection committee can kiss my A.. They are the reason there a shortage . The desire of people wanting in is greater than what

  • sonofpoweredge said... (original post)

    I dont want to hear the shit, My son went to UT, majored in neuroscience, finished in 3 and a half years, had a 3.5 GPA. He cant get into med schoool. Have to have a 3.7. He applied for physical therapy school, didnt even get a interview. He was going to apply for phy asst, so he went to UT southwest medical school, and they told him he need a semesters worth of pre reqs to meet their program, but there was no guarantee of getting in.

    So, screw all of them. They dont want doctors. We just spent a 100,000 dollars only to get the door slammed in our face.

    now, he is in UT grad school getting a masters in accounting.

    It doesn't make much sense does it? I am sorry to hear about your son and his plans being altered. I bet he will be one hell of an accountant though.

  • The way they work has forced my other son to take a harder look. He graduated HS with a 4.0, ranked number 5 in his class out of 600. Never made less than an A since the 6th grade. Went to UT Austin, got in Mcombs as a business pre med major. took all the chem abd biology classes first. Has a black belt in karate and a eagle scout. Has a 3.85 gpa. Did a lot of shadowing with a
    heart specalist from johns hopkins. He saw the chain jerking Adam got so he decided not to play the game. They just lost another potential doctor. He changed majors to engineering route to business and economics double major. He thought why would I get a degree, maybe have to wait a year or 2 to get in med school, then do 4 years in med school, then internship, then 4 more years speciality school. Hell, he'd be 32 before he went to work. And the cost of 8 years of med school would be 300-400 thousand. You would have to be a doctor to pay off that bill. Plus the lost income for another 8 years. Now you're up to a million dollars. Screw it. If there is a shortage of doctors, now you see why? He would rather get a MBA and have a life rather than go in debt over his head and Hope that he gets in a med school.

    We're not going to spend another hundred thousand hoping we get in a med school. Through playing the med school game.

  • How about applying at other medical schools? Like OU?

    And, I would rec the young man strongly consider the Physicians Assistant profession. I think in a few years that profession will be almost equal to MD. I think the MD profession has set up some artificial barriers to entry. In order to lessen competition. These barriers have existed for a long time. And still, some mediocre professionals get through. That's understandable, but it's worth noting. It's similar to law, accounting and so on. I am certified in a field. I think it's nice, but certification is kind of a dinasaur.

    Also, the Physician Assistant profession is growing steadily. Also, the Professional Nurse profession is growing.

    Times are changing. The information that's available out there presents opportunities.

    To the thread title: I think PA and Nurse Professions and internet provide some of the answers to the challenge of shortage of rural physicians. Don't wait for the affable country doc who makes house calls for $10 a pop. That's not coming.

    So....check out other med schools, the PA option and let's wrap up the pity party.

    But a sharp PA with common sense, a cell phone, laptop and good judgement is attainable. And the earned ability to prescribe.

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by Pragmatic 3 years ago

  • there is no pity party. We are not going to play the game. It costs too much money and wastes too much time. We found another route.

    One thing too about applying, you apply NOW for the class starting NEXT year. So if you arent selected, you wait another year to apply for the class starting the next year. So it takes 2 years to start after you get your first NO. We decided it wasnt worth sitting around waiting on a MAYBE.

    I'm saying the system is F... up and its their own fault if they want to sit around and holler "theres a shortage" . They are creating a shortage. There is not a shortage of qualified people wanting in. but there is a shortage of schools willing to let you in. So F...'em.

  • I agree there are artificial barriers to entry to the MD field. And I agree there are qualified kids that don't get a fair chance.

  • And I agree OU needs to knock off the NM fund and give the money to OKLAHOMA kids , whose parents are OKLAHOMA taxpayers, rather than pour our tax dollars to asians,mexicans, indians and who ever has their hand out.
    It is not a bad thing to give out a few handouts, but this has gone too far.

    You mean I have worked and paid taxes for 50 years, and my tax money is going to pay for foreigners education instead of my own kids ? And some of those foreigners are illegal aliens.

    If we had any polititions with a hair on their butt they would stand up and REPRESENT us taxpayers and put a stop to this jazz

    This post was edited by sonofpoweredge 3 years ago

  • Go the PA route? Seriously? I have no inclination to be a Medical Doctor or a PA.....but telling someone, too bad be a PA is liking telling someone, not to be a lawyer, be a legal assistant. Really? I agree with the dad, why spend the money and the time on a maybe, just do something else and get on with your life. If a PA with a laptop is as good as a doctor........then why do the doctors make so much more money, and why is the selection process so rigid? I don't think the guy is asking for pity, just saying the system is jacked and lost out on two doctors because of it. As far as the national merit scholarships and in state students.....OU is trying to bring bright minds into the state. To say use it on Oklahoma kids because they will stay is a fallacy, they can leave to.

  • The PA option? Yes. If it doesn't work for you, don't do it. If you don't want their care, choose another method. Choose an MD in a distant location.

    PA's do provide great medical care for some people. My doc relies on a PA for some procedures. The med school process is rigid. Maybe too rigid.

    Legal: I know of several legal para professionals who did well in law school. And are now practicing law. That route is not for everyone, but it works for some lawyers. They know practical things - like how to get around in the court house and who the judges are. That matters.

    National Merit Scholarships: OU should offer 100% tuition. That's enough. OU should not pay lavish amounts to compete with Berkeley. And yes, OU should recruit more good students from Oklahoma. Sons and daughters of Oklahoma taxpayers. OSU is beating OU out on some great kids.

    If you support OU's present NM program, go ahead and send your money in - probably to "President's Partners". Here's some info on the program:

    "Recruitment

    OU has an office, called National Scholars Programs, that's dedicated to recruiting and retaining National Merit Scholars. The office has four staff members, an administrative assistant and about four to six student employees, said Andy Roop, director of prospective student services.

    The office has an annual budget of $266,475 for salaries and operating expenses. That does not include money for scholarships".

    Read more: http://newsok.com/university-of-oklahoma-offers-support-scholarships-for-national-merit-scholars/article/3609787#ixzz1ZqAFferO

    That overhead is equivalent to 50 or 60 scholarships at $4,000.

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by Pragmatic 3 years ago


  • nm

    This post was edited by SoonerInTN 13 months ago

  • You just validated what I have been saying. The system is screwed up. Was the guy who applied 4 times a better candidate than he was the first time he applied. If the books are the same, why not just have med school as graduate school and increase the number of residency programs. Then we overcome the self made shortage

  • SoonerInTN said... (original post)

    In the end, it doesn't matter how you got there. Just that you got there.

    In my group, one doc took 4 times to get in. Another went to dental school before med school. One was a chemical engineer. One an accountant.

    Any comment on the Doctor of Osteopathy D.O. programs? As I understand, there is a D.O. school in Tulsa.

    How about this: OU should double the size of the OU Med School admission? In general, could the faculty and facilities handle twice as many students? I think there are enough qualified and bright and energetic students. Thoughts? .

    I wonder why the med schools artificially limit the number of admissions so severely. There are other smilar situations to the one discussed above.

  • I would be willing to bet that the med school class rooms are vacant 90 percent of the time. And could they not have night classes ? Could what they teach be taught in grad school ? Could what they teach be done in 3 years rather than 4 ? That would create a 25 percent opening.

    I remember one of my sons , the one that in HS that had a 4 point and finished 5th out of 600, wanted me to let him get a GED when he was a junior and go to school in Germany because the process was much faster there.

    Stupid us, look at the percent of students accepted are foreigners who take their skills back to their motherland. Asians, packastanis india,. And we are stupid enough to pay for it for them. And they take up space in our schools taking up the space of an American who could be there and would stay in America to help with the "shortage".

    Read about med schools in germany and compare it to ours.

  • I am not expert but I bet there is capacity for bigger OU Med School classes. Any comments from recent - or not recent - grads of OU Med School?
    Are admission standards reasonable to produce good physicians? Or are they too high in some areas?

    In general, I think OU has a real solid competitive Med School But any institution should be subject to scrutiny on admissions and any other area.

    This post was edited by Pragmatic 3 years ago

  • The reason we won WW2 was because of our greater industrial capability. And now we cant figure out how to increase the number of people in med school to become doctors in our country ? How about as a country, we take care of our country first.

    If you want to be a PA, lets start in HS. Take math and science classes. Enroll in a college as a premed on a 2 year degree. Of course the med schools would have to change their rules, God forbid, to admit people with a 2 year premed degree. Do PA's really need to know history,goverment, literature, and the BS courses required for a 4 year degree? If they made that change, that would greatly increase the number of qualified students and also free up space in undergrad universities . Now the med schools need to do their part and increase their enrollment, say triple it. Is it too hard to build a building and hire instructors for an increased enrollment ? Remember, this is America. We can do it.

    Do I really need a doctor that can quote Shakesphere while taking my blood pressure ? Or do I need a doctor who can take my blood pressure and know when their is a problem?

    As for the 4 year med schools, if a student came in with the science and math background, why couldnt the program be a 3 year instead of 4? That would increase enrollment 25 percent right there. And maybe we dont even have to build new buildings. Why can the med schools utilize HS campuses for night classes. They arent being used at night now anyway, Couldnt they double or triple enrollment by utilizing that "free" space?

    So whats the problem? The problem is our educators are set in their ways and there is no leadership to get them off high center.